POST STUFF
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 by Syp, Level 52
Last updated at March 24, 2009, 8:24 am
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I don't know if I've talked about this before (senility, you understand), but when it comes to online gaming, I tend to be much more of a follower than a leader in groups. That partially comes from real life, where I'm a leader in several areas, and I just want to have one thing in my life where I don't have to take charge to get things done. Even so, I've usually ended up becoming a GM or officer in MMOs, mostly out of frustration of a current lack of leadership.WAR is a game where leaders are a precious commodity, and good leaders even more so -- perhaps right up there with healers. It takes more effort and work to start up and lead a warband or party than it does to sign on for the tour. You have to be the one making decisions, keeping everyone focused, laying out a battle plan, listening and sorting through ideas, and leading by example. It's not easy. In fact, the term "herding schizophrenic cats" has popped into the mouth of more than one warband leader from time to time. WAR makes it easy for people to join up and leave without so much as a "how'd'ya'do", so a leader's additional responsibility is in constant recruitment efforts, keeping the warband full. In PvE dungeon runs, it gets even tougher.
So I don't envy folks who step up to be leaders, and as a follower, I abide by a few simple rules:
- Listen to what the leader is saying, and if at all possible, do it.
- Support the team. The team comes first. No lone maverick stuff.
- If I disagree with the leader, I do it through private /tells, not in warband chat.
However, this is not carte blanche for leaders to be insecure jerkwads, spewing invective and abuse at the followers under their command. The above screenshot was from a T2 keep take I participated in a couple months ago, where the warband leader absolutely unhinged over a few people who didn't instantly obey his commands. Once a guy is screaming in ALL CAPS, calling people names and demonstrating a severe lack of patience, it's pretty much over. I just stuck around for the show.
Leading is a quality and skill that is part innate and part learned, and it never, ever comes instantly if one is handed a dose of authority and given free reign. There are some who subscribe to the "leadership through brute force" model, who seek to cow all those under them through sheer force of will and words alone. There are some who aspire to be "leadership by buddy-buddy", refusing to make a decision unless all their "friends" in the warband agree, as not to risk any hurt feelings.
Good leadership leads through service -- you serve those under your command by trying to meet their needs and fulfill their goals. It also requires you to realize that you are the one who makes the final decision, and sometimes that decision is unpopular because it serves the needs of the group at large, not just one individual. Leadership is often lonely and not fully appreciated by those under your care. It has its rewards, and it has its trials. One of the best ways to learn about leadership is to carefully observe successful leaders in your life and in game, and take note as to what they do and how they do it.
So leaders? Lead responsibly. Followers? Be a blessing for your leaders, not a painful boil on the skin of the warband.
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73 comments
girlirl Mar 24, 2009 at 10:50 am
+1 votes
I never knew how frustrating it can be to lead a large group of players in doing something until I had the responsibility of leading a completely inexperienced bunch through Zul Gurub in WoW. As the only person in our guild who had done the instance (on another server), I had to lead everyone through the trash pulls, the boss fights, etc. And I never even really paid attention to those things on my other character -- I was a hunter ffs!
I think that leading a PvP-oriented group would be twice as difficult though. You're more invested, your members are being killed off more easily and more often. I don't condone the all caps jerk speak, but I can see how someone could reach that point of frustration.
I think that leading a PvP-oriented group would be twice as difficult though. You're more invested, your members are being killed off more easily and more often. I don't condone the all caps jerk speak, but I can see how someone could reach that point of frustration.
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Czarnal Mar 24, 2009 at 11:23 am
+2 votes
Very well said, Syp. Good advice for both parties.
One thing about the warband leader ALL CAPS business. The reason this is so common is that there's no Warband leader color differentiation, or Raid Warnings (That I've ever seen) or anything. So for the leader to stand out, they may feel the need to use caps. It's the wrong decision almost always and is annoying, but the developers could help to alleviate it by giving the leader a way to stand out from the rest of the chatter.
One thing about the warband leader ALL CAPS business. The reason this is so common is that there's no Warband leader color differentiation, or Raid Warnings (That I've ever seen) or anything. So for the leader to stand out, they may feel the need to use caps. It's the wrong decision almost always and is annoying, but the developers could help to alleviate it by giving the leader a way to stand out from the rest of the chatter.
sharon Mar 24, 2009 at 12:42 pm
+2 votes
I think we learn who the strong warband leaders are and who to stay away from. The best warband leaders are the ones who are great teachers. I have my favorites, and if I see them putting a warband together, I'm very likely to jump in because I know it'll be a great experience... win or lose. If a leader starts screaming at people for being noobs and morons, I generally don't stick around.
I agree that it would be great if there were a color differentation for warband leaders!
I agree that it would be great if there were a color differentation for warband leaders!
BVD Mar 24, 2009 at 1:13 pm
+1 votes
Syp,
You're so timely in posting a topic like this, especially after the experience I had yesterday (which unfortunately I'm about to share in detail). It certainly saves me the hassle of emailing you and begging you to do a post on this very subject.
Now for the long, drawn-out telling of my tale (note - for just the important part of this insanely-long comment, please jump to the next bolded lines).
I run my Order characters (all 10 of them... altoholic, I know) on Volkmar and yesterday I spent most of my time bringing my KoBS up a few renown levels in the T2 RvR lakes. I'll admit right now that I'm probably not the greatest party/warband leader that ever existed, but I do my best to do the following things:
1) Listen to warband member ideas
2) Organize the warband to the best of my ability to spread heals & tanks out
3) Always have "Need on Use" on to prevent arguments over "phat loots"
4) Try to avoid using caps if possible, and be succinct when identifying the next target
5) Throw some humour into the mix ("/fart" works well!) to keep things light from time to time
I logged on early in the morning, so activity on the server was pretty sparse and I had to beg my arse off just to get 2-3 guys to join my party in taking back BO's in Barak Varr. T2 keeps, all of which were red at the time of logging on, were definitely out of the question at that point.
BO cappin' went fairly well for an hour or so, as we capped all the Dwarf/Greenskin BO's and then headed over to take care of business in Troll Country. Arrving at Monestary of Morr, we converted into a warband and enjoyed a large influx of Order folk hungry for battle. With the Monestary capped, the warband made its way over to Greystone and capped that too. Then things went all to hell.
I had identified Crypt as our next target, but a whole bunch of jibber-jabber from a few of the warband members suggested "why don't we take Stonetroll? We're already here!". Not wanting to rock the boat, and thinking there was at least a bit of logic to the jibber-jabber, I agreed and the warband got to work breaking out the siege equipment. The door went down pretty quickly, but unfortunately a large mob of Destro showed up on the scene just as quickly and flooded into the Lord room. 20 minutes later, the warband had been wiped and the only survivors were trapped on the 3rd floor, on the pad, or locked out when the keep doors slammed shut. IMHO, it was time to call it quits.
Calling it quits got the usual "we're almost there - give it one more shot!" lines from a few members of the warband, but generally everyone knew it was over. Finally we moved on to take Crypt and then Kinshels before heading over to the Marshes of Madness. Once again the jibber-jabber started up - "take the MoM keep quickly before Destro knows what's up!". A bit hesitant this time (figuring Destro would show up on the scene just as quickly), I agreed and made it a point to go guard the posterior door and asking a few of the warband members to come with me. Despite my requests (as warband leader) to secure the posterior, only one other player bothered to support me. Wave of Destro through the back door later, and we were in the same spot as we were back at Stonetroll Keep 20 minutes earlier.
We abandoned our assault again, and lost some warband members who were demoralized from receiving arse-poundings at two keeps in a row. I figured BO farming might be the way to go until we were back up to full strength, so I had the warband head over to Barak Varr with the intention of hitting the Ironclad. Of course, the minute we got in the zone more of the jibber-jabberers started yelling "head for the keep!". I kept saying no, but minutes later the keep was pinged. Destro didn't need to show up, as they were already hiding within the keep and waiting to pound us once more, and probably elated to see that we weren't even a full warband (75% strength).
Now a bit frustrated I told the warband to back off the keep and not to bother with them again until we were at least full strength. 2-3 more jibber-jabberers started spouting off at the mouth, saying "well, this warband sure does quit easily" as well as other negative remarks. At this point I lost my cool and unleashed the fury of the CAPS LOCK. I told those who spoke out that they should have never pinged the keep in the first place, they were a bunch of jibber-jabberers, and that they should "L2P" - an insult I loathe seeing used, as I'm pretty sure most people know how to play the game. It was an uncalled for insult, but what can I say? I was pretty angry.
I quickly calmed down though and finally decided to take control of the warband. I wasn't about to turn into some power-crazed dictator and tell everyone what to do, but I figured it was time to set things straight. I locked down the warband so it was no longer public, and made one last CAPS LOCK announcement stating "THIS IS NOW A BO-CAPPIN'-ONLY WARBAND" followed by a "feel free to leave if you're not interested".
A few people left, one of them saying "what a noob warband" before going, which knocked us down to about 40% - 50% strength. One guy sent me private messages (a very good approach if you absolutely feel the need to disagree with the warband leader) to try to convince me to change it back to a public warband and start hitting keeps again, but eventually concluded that I was the warband leader and he'd follow my lead.
From that point on the warband became a lean, mean, fighting machine. A friend on Volkmar came online and joined the warband, providing a supporting voice for my decisions ("listen to the leader") when people started thinking about jibber-jabbering. By the time we capped the Ironclad & Lighthouse and had headed back to Troll Country the warband had filled back up, but all through invites and only after I used Region-chat to announce we were a BO-CAPPIN'-ONLY warband. We actually ended up capping Stonetroll keep and the keep in Marshes of Madness (which we later then defended against Destro forces after capping the Barak Varr BO's once again) despite being focused on BO's. I think this was because everyone started communicating like a team and pulling together as opposed to being crazy loners who were just using warbands to further their own agendas (i.e. gettin' phat lootz in the form of Gold Bags).
Apologies for the ridiculously long comment, but it was just yesterday and the whole experience made me realize the difficulty in being a (good) warband leader. Perhaps in another one of your posts Syp, you can explore the reason why people feel the need to be asshats when it comes to keep raids and getting their loots. I seem to have an infinitely better time (and easier time as warband leader) defending keeps, and actually feel like I'm contributing more to my realm by defending a keep than going off half-cocked on a keep raid. That usually results in getting a spanking at a well-defended keep, which demoralizes the warband (sometimes breaking it up), leaving all the keeps you have taken up for grabs by an opposing team's warband who are assaulting with high morale after coming off a successful keep defense.
Or maybe I really am a noob warband leader who's an arse himself for locking down the warband and saying BO's only... thoughts?
You're so timely in posting a topic like this, especially after the experience I had yesterday (which unfortunately I'm about to share in detail). It certainly saves me the hassle of emailing you and begging you to do a post on this very subject.
Now for the long, drawn-out telling of my tale (note - for just the important part of this insanely-long comment, please jump to the next bolded lines).
I run my Order characters (all 10 of them... altoholic, I know) on Volkmar and yesterday I spent most of my time bringing my KoBS up a few renown levels in the T2 RvR lakes. I'll admit right now that I'm probably not the greatest party/warband leader that ever existed, but I do my best to do the following things:
1) Listen to warband member ideas
2) Organize the warband to the best of my ability to spread heals & tanks out
3) Always have "Need on Use" on to prevent arguments over "phat loots"
4) Try to avoid using caps if possible, and be succinct when identifying the next target
5) Throw some humour into the mix ("/fart" works well!) to keep things light from time to time
I logged on early in the morning, so activity on the server was pretty sparse and I had to beg my arse off just to get 2-3 guys to join my party in taking back BO's in Barak Varr. T2 keeps, all of which were red at the time of logging on, were definitely out of the question at that point.
BO cappin' went fairly well for an hour or so, as we capped all the Dwarf/Greenskin BO's and then headed over to take care of business in Troll Country. Arrving at Monestary of Morr, we converted into a warband and enjoyed a large influx of Order folk hungry for battle. With the Monestary capped, the warband made its way over to Greystone and capped that too. Then things went all to hell.
I had identified Crypt as our next target, but a whole bunch of jibber-jabber from a few of the warband members suggested "why don't we take Stonetroll? We're already here!". Not wanting to rock the boat, and thinking there was at least a bit of logic to the jibber-jabber, I agreed and the warband got to work breaking out the siege equipment. The door went down pretty quickly, but unfortunately a large mob of Destro showed up on the scene just as quickly and flooded into the Lord room. 20 minutes later, the warband had been wiped and the only survivors were trapped on the 3rd floor, on the pad, or locked out when the keep doors slammed shut. IMHO, it was time to call it quits.
Calling it quits got the usual "we're almost there - give it one more shot!" lines from a few members of the warband, but generally everyone knew it was over. Finally we moved on to take Crypt and then Kinshels before heading over to the Marshes of Madness. Once again the jibber-jabber started up - "take the MoM keep quickly before Destro knows what's up!". A bit hesitant this time (figuring Destro would show up on the scene just as quickly), I agreed and made it a point to go guard the posterior door and asking a few of the warband members to come with me. Despite my requests (as warband leader) to secure the posterior, only one other player bothered to support me. Wave of Destro through the back door later, and we were in the same spot as we were back at Stonetroll Keep 20 minutes earlier.
We abandoned our assault again, and lost some warband members who were demoralized from receiving arse-poundings at two keeps in a row. I figured BO farming might be the way to go until we were back up to full strength, so I had the warband head over to Barak Varr with the intention of hitting the Ironclad. Of course, the minute we got in the zone more of the jibber-jabberers started yelling "head for the keep!". I kept saying no, but minutes later the keep was pinged. Destro didn't need to show up, as they were already hiding within the keep and waiting to pound us once more, and probably elated to see that we weren't even a full warband (75% strength).
Now a bit frustrated I told the warband to back off the keep and not to bother with them again until we were at least full strength. 2-3 more jibber-jabberers started spouting off at the mouth, saying "well, this warband sure does quit easily" as well as other negative remarks. At this point I lost my cool and unleashed the fury of the CAPS LOCK. I told those who spoke out that they should have never pinged the keep in the first place, they were a bunch of jibber-jabberers, and that they should "L2P" - an insult I loathe seeing used, as I'm pretty sure most people know how to play the game. It was an uncalled for insult, but what can I say? I was pretty angry.
I quickly calmed down though and finally decided to take control of the warband. I wasn't about to turn into some power-crazed dictator and tell everyone what to do, but I figured it was time to set things straight. I locked down the warband so it was no longer public, and made one last CAPS LOCK announcement stating "THIS IS NOW A BO-CAPPIN'-ONLY WARBAND" followed by a "feel free to leave if you're not interested".
A few people left, one of them saying "what a noob warband" before going, which knocked us down to about 40% - 50% strength. One guy sent me private messages (a very good approach if you absolutely feel the need to disagree with the warband leader) to try to convince me to change it back to a public warband and start hitting keeps again, but eventually concluded that I was the warband leader and he'd follow my lead.
From that point on the warband became a lean, mean, fighting machine. A friend on Volkmar came online and joined the warband, providing a supporting voice for my decisions ("listen to the leader") when people started thinking about jibber-jabbering. By the time we capped the Ironclad & Lighthouse and had headed back to Troll Country the warband had filled back up, but all through invites and only after I used Region-chat to announce we were a BO-CAPPIN'-ONLY warband. We actually ended up capping Stonetroll keep and the keep in Marshes of Madness (which we later then defended against Destro forces after capping the Barak Varr BO's once again) despite being focused on BO's. I think this was because everyone started communicating like a team and pulling together as opposed to being crazy loners who were just using warbands to further their own agendas (i.e. gettin' phat lootz in the form of Gold Bags).
Apologies for the ridiculously long comment, but it was just yesterday and the whole experience made me realize the difficulty in being a (good) warband leader. Perhaps in another one of your posts Syp, you can explore the reason why people feel the need to be asshats when it comes to keep raids and getting their loots. I seem to have an infinitely better time (and easier time as warband leader) defending keeps, and actually feel like I'm contributing more to my realm by defending a keep than going off half-cocked on a keep raid. That usually results in getting a spanking at a well-defended keep, which demoralizes the warband (sometimes breaking it up), leaving all the keeps you have taken up for grabs by an opposing team's warband who are assaulting with high morale after coming off a successful keep defense.
Or maybe I really am a noob warband leader who's an arse himself for locking down the warband and saying BO's only... thoughts?
Bede Mar 24, 2009 at 4:42 pm
+2 votes
BVD, your tale of leader woe followed by eventual success in capturing and defending keeps made a stunning impression. You and Syp have created a "Leadership Primer".
The experience you related and the overall perspective provided by Syp are now posted close to my monitor for easy reference when I try again to "herd water beetles" as a warband leader!
Regards,
Bede of Iron Rock
The experience you related and the overall perspective provided by Syp are now posted close to my monitor for easy reference when I try again to "herd water beetles" as a warband leader!
Regards,
Bede of Iron Rock
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Mechadina Mar 25, 2009 at 4:18 am
+2 votes
Good story. One thing mythic should implement.
Unique text-color for warband leader, no need for CAPS and not so easy to miss. Its a low hanging fruit
Unique text-color for warband leader, no need for CAPS and not so easy to miss. Its a low hanging fruit
Mechadina Mar 25, 2009 at 4:20 am
+1 votes
Btw I hate buddy leaders...
Does everyone agree? -
Dont waste time hearing everyones opinions. Just take charge and move on
Does everyone agree? -
Dont waste time hearing everyones opinions. Just take charge and move on
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